Weighting Wet Flys and Nymphs

[dennis]

Here is a question I don't think has ever been asked here. At least I've never found it by searching the site.
We already know CJ's answer, and Valla only fishes dry flys but I was curious about the rest of you.

Witch do you prefer when fishing subsurface, copper, or lead wire wrapped around the shank, 2xH wire hooks, Beadheads, split shot or one of the sinking lines made today.

I prefer to use 2x heavy wire hooks or copper or lead wire wound on the shank. I don't use beadheads or coneheads. But I do believe alot has to do with how the pattern style effects presention.

[catskilljohn]

We already know CJ's answer

Not so fast, my handsome friend

While I believe a bead is the fastest and most effective way to get a nymph to the bottom of a stream, I would not use one on a wet fly. For wet flies I wrap a lead wire substitute, very stealthy and they sink deep even in fast flows. I dont weigh all of them, but there are times when you just arent going to get a fly down deep in a short distance without some help.

I used to use heavy wire hooks, but to me they dont penetrate easily and long distance release rates seem to go up Some of that could be that I set hooks very gently and rely on a sharp point to do the work.

I dont have any sink tip lines, but then, almost all the water I fish wouldn't require one anyway. The nice thing about weighted flies is, even with a floating line the fly is decending and pulling the leader at a better angle for you to feel takes. Less slack from the current having its way with a light fly.

Its all good, and there is no right or wrong as long as your enjoying it. CJ

[narcodog]

I use beads on some nymphs. I also use a lead sub. I gave up lead about five years ago. The way you wrap your weight will change the attitude of the fly in the water.
Wrapped to the front it will be nose down. more in the middle more of a neutral float.

[ted patlen]

cj said a few things that i thought of...some of my observations

Presentation, presentation etc...
there are some spots that need extra weight and shot, sometimes 3-4 to SLOW the fly drift. sometimes none is needed. another form of weight that is very effective is the soft "leads" very small amounts can be utilized if you fish nymphs on very fine tippets 7-8x even 9x

heavy hooks are good for some flies while lighter wire, smaller gap hooks float better in certain cases....crystal clear water from 1-2 feet deep, moving along but not screaming downstream...in this type of water heavy hooks or bead heads or weighted flies will not be as effective as lighter wire hooks drifting somewhere mid depth...

personally i never add weight to the fly hook because they don't drift downstream like the natural foods a fish sees. trout are stupid creatures (you gotta be a moron to live in such a harsh environment as they do) but they become accustomed to the natural drift of everything in the water...some of this stuff they stop and eat... any flies that are tyed to drift along within the same parameters as the food forms the fish see stand a great chance at taking trout...

great topic

yo

[Eperous]

Dennis,

I use them all --- EXCEPT I rarely, if ever, weight any wet flies... I like to fish wet flies high in the water column... the exception to this rule is the Carey Special, which I use in ponds for brook trout, so I do use lead under those peacock bodies..

I like some beadheads where I think FLASH is important... I like to think a shiny beadhead sparkles underwater creating the illusion of life, simulating air bubbles and breathing... I also use beadheads for tiny, 16-20 size nymphs, where I might be concerned about body bulk/thickness... some of these I fish off/under a dry fly as a dropper some 3"-6" below... most deep running nymphs I use lead on... not only lead, but than I wrap floss along the lead and coat the combo with head cement so the lead won't oxidize through the body after being used one or twice and having gotten wet... I guess if one doesn't fish a fly more than once, it might be an unnecessary step... sometimes, however, after I wrap lead and floss as an underbody, I crush that creating a FLAT BODY, nymph... if one didn't use the floss, the lead would break and fall off the hook...

AND, in the spring, especially in pocket water I add a split shot or two to my leader... normally one or two BB's... if I need more, I increase the size of the shot... I never use more than two shots with weighted flies, too much going on in the air as I cast/chuck/lob the heavy combo upstream...

As for sinking lines and sink tips... normally I only use sinking lines when trolling streamers in lakes and ponds.... I have a couple sink tips, but don't use them much any more at all... I did use them when probing deeper waters in the Adirondacks... I don't find them necessary in the Catskills...

So there you go, no one answer... no one size fits all here.... at least for me...

Ed

PS - All of this said, I do NOT weight all my nymphs... some are just fine, and fish better - like Isonychia patterns - unweighted...

PPS - Almost forgot --- Coneheads... I do NOT use these on nymphs, nor wets, but on several streamer patterns, some of which I tied on NYMPH hooks, and fish as nymphs - like small Black Conehead Woolly Buggers.... I guess, that's one way of bending the rules...

[corlay]

I tie all of my wets and nymphs, #14 and larger, on Tiemco 3761 or 3769 hooks, both of which are heavy wire.
Otherwise, the only weight added might be some medium gauge wire rib, on certain patterns.
I also knot my leaders with Flouro material, for the better sink-rate properties.

I really despise casting xtra weighted files and/or shot, and quite stubbornly refuse to do it, no matter the conditions.

To get my flies deeper, when desired, I'll use one of two methods:

1. An upstream (vs. downstream) quartering cast to let my flies drift down good and deep prior to reaching the lie that I'm targeting downstream from me.

2. I've spliced 8' of the head from a WF6I Cortland intermediate sink line, onto one end of my 'peach' DT6F line (after removing 8' of that line's head, first....). This acts as a sinking leader extension of sorts, but is much easier to cast 3 wets flies, than extending my leader past 7.5'-9'.

I do use normal weight dry fly hooks (Tiemco 100) for my small pheasant tail nymphs.
I have dabbled with bead heads a bit on some caddis nymph and woolly buggers.
That's about it.

[dennis]

The reason for posting this question was to see if anyone mention's different tying styles and methods for wet flys found in a book I just bought who was a past author of the Catskills.The book has been mentioned a few times by a couple members here. The author's wet fly design is very unique along with a couple methods in fishing them.At least they were to me anyway. Especially when mentioning the "Fast fly retrieve when water crickets were on the water". What are water crickets

A few days ago I was lucky to purchase a couple books while shopping with my wife.The first was Gerald Almy's "Tying and fishing Terrestrials" a great book written about Eastern patterns tyed by allot of the old fly fishing masters of that area. The book was previously owned by Louis Marden who needs no introduction here.The other book was "Taking Larger Trout" by Larry Koller. This is the one that mentions what I had never heard of or read before about fishing wets and was just curious to see if any of you had either.I didn't want to come right out and ask about Koller's book so I asked about weighting flies hoping that someone would mention that different style's of tyes will get wet's down without using weight. Such as tying them sparse and lowering the wings, which has been discussed here before.

In Kollers book he mentions two methods of fishing the wet fly that intrigued me. The first he called "High Rod Fast Fly" and the second "Fishing the Drifting or "Slow Fly".He also says certain streams require heavy bodied wets with long stiff hackles and a long wing.
Also, light water streams need slim, sparsely dressed flys with slender bodies and soft hackles. On the pages 258-263 he addresses the tying techniques and fly dressings along with a color plate of some wets dressed with the body well down on the bend of the hook covering all hook shank and filling half the bend. Hackle is full and long extending just beyond the bend and tied after hackleing. He says this design is effective when trout are not yet coming to the top and is to be fished well down using the "Slow Fly" method.
In clear normal water when fish are taking emerging nymphs and are jumping to water crickets use the "Fast Fly" retrieve. This pattern is tyed with short wing and well down in the hook suggesting the developed wing case of the nymph. Hackle is sparse but long and tied in front of the wing. Koller mentions using wire wrapped around the body,stout hooks and to cast upstream a ways to get the fly to the level of the fish. He only mentions split shot when bait fishing. Great book

[redietz]

What are water crickets

A type of water strider. It's a British term; I don't even think we have that particular species in North America. (Not that we don't have plenty of water striders.)

[dennis]

Well, I never thought about water striders. Thanks Bob

[Soft-hackle]

Gosh,
I haven't been here in a while, but this thread caught my eye. I've read Koller's book a number of times and consider it, along with Bergman's TROUT one of the best ever written. I recall the fly tying method you speak of, Dennis, although I've never tried it. I fish a lot of wet flies, and I've used an occasional weighted nymph or streamer. There's one I tie I call a Fuzz Puppy with bead chain eyes that works exceptionally well in the early part of the year.

I usually do not use weight on my wets and there's a number of reasons. I feel it impedes the action of the fly in the water. It's even worse if you add a split shot to the leader, and I only do that under certain applications. My thoughts go back to earlier days when wet flies were used exclusively--Before dry flies. These flies were not weighted as we think of weighting, today. They were dressed, sometime with wires and metal tinsels which probably added a little weight to the fly.

Heavy wire hooks and a fast full sinking fly line works well for me on a shorter leader of about 7.5 feet. The line pulls the shorter leader down much faster. I find this combination is great for early spring fishing when the water is deep and you need to get down.

Again, in early days, silk gut lines surely must have sunk well if untreated, which they probably were prior to dry fly days. Remember, the gut leaders were soaked as well, helping wet flies to sink. In addition casting well enough upstream to give the fly time to get down, before reaching the fish, also helps. It requires line control and retrieval as the fly moves downriver. You can also raise and lower the rod if necessary to take line up and let line out.

Those are my thoughts and the techniques I use to get the fly (flies) down without weighting. I really hate to see a beautifully tied wet fly be ruined by the addition of a bead. Dennis, if you try out Koller's tying method, give us some feedback as to how it works.

Mark